Imagination Technologies Group Live Discussion

techno foxx 13 Sep 2017

Apple now Stretching credibility to far? Techno fox Apple Stretching credibility to way too far?Those on this board who are so stupid to believe that Apple has produced a new gpu chipset a year that not only outperforms the last powervr chipset by 30% which on its own might have been possible, however to also at the same time deliver a 50% powervr saving over the last chipset, unbelievable sure Apple might have produced a new tbr from scratch, however it would have been at the cost of battery life, as Arm found out when they attempted to catch powervr in terms of both performance and battery life reductions, it’s not just the performance of the GPU that has been vital to IMG it is also the patented battery power saving tricks used in its TBR gpu chipset design, and so for apple to go from scratch to outperform powervr not only in GPU performance and at the same time reduce battery life by 50% over last chipset without using the power saving tricks developed by IMG over a decade is simply stretching credibility way too far.Even for Apple.Not sure why IMG chairman has not started legal action against Apple, it make me wonder which side he is batting for?it also makes one wonder if Apple is secretly working with NVIDIA as a tag team double act to bring IMG Down so they can get their hands on ray tracing technology?

srsm 13 Sep 2017

Let's take a look Just to cheer us up: Ho Ho Ho[link]

srsm 13 Sep 2017

Re: Post Apple ARM : sold themselves for £23.5 Billion. Even I'd accept that Years ago I was going to invest a lot more in IMG at about £1.00 but decided not to because I thought that 20p or thereabouts from an iPhone selling for £500 was a pittance as a reward. Now we see the iPhoneX at £1150 or so. And if IMG were still there they'd get about the same (20p guess). As a percentage that is about 0.017% of the retail price. Can't imagine there is a worse deal in any industry than that for such a vital (and expensive to develop) 'component'. And ARM get less.However, they had to diversify: just in case Apple dropped them. But undoubtedly engaged in one or two diversifications too many. They've now gone. Costs cut, arguably slashed. And yes, still expensive R&D but there are huge markets out there. Can they win enough and get a 'fairer' share? Any other views?

Tired and Confused 13 Sep 2017

Re: Post Apple "Can IMGs 'imminent' failure be the only option?"IMG products are great, you have listed a few its just they can't run a profitable PLC, never have, never will because the R&D spend has always gobbled up every bit of profit made. You haven't got a worthwhile business unless you can make a profit and can give shareholder/stakeholders a return on capital employed, that's the problem. IMG's business model doesn't make sense, that's why it's up for sale.The cutting edge and innovative technologies cost too much to develop at best in class level for a small company like IMG to sustain. They haven't got the critical mass that allowed ARM to generate huge profits from tiny payments royalties used in millions and millions of end products and in the end even ARM couldn't resist consolidation/takeover, call it what you will, into a global player with vast resources.IMG never have had the capitalisation to justified development of so many cutting edge products at the same time and as a result have paid for their corporate ambition by staving investors or a return ploughing back all into R&D.I stick by my gloomy thoughts about IMG as a PLC even though the technology they have and are developing have a bright future in other hands.AIMHO

Tired and Confused 13 Sep 2017

IMG get a mention [link] and losers

srsm 13 Sep 2017

Post Apple Taking into T&Cs post regarding it being impossible for IMG to sue Apple, even though Apple get sued a lot and seem to lose a lot, how about a Post Apple IMG discussion.Maybe a SWOT analysis. Always assuming IMG just give up going after Apple but still get some revenue for a while for older tech. And am I correct in saying the Apple TV,which isn't a TV, it's actually a set top box uses PowerVR as does the latest iPad? Not sure. [link] GPU in the A10X is nearly identical to that in the A9X and A10, so it is likely still Imagination's PowerVR technology."IMG =PowerVR Graphics (Furian)PowerVR VideoPowerVR Ray Tracing (Wizard)PowerVR Vision[link] Warrior etcEnsigma CommunicationAnd the Omnishield security tech which I think applies to all of the above. In the context of AR/VR/MR (Mixed Reality), IoT (MIPS and Ensigma). Driverless Cars etc etc. Can IMGs 'imminent' failure be the only option?

Tired and Confused 13 Sep 2017

Re: Apple & IMG litigation? I really think people are missing the point.IMG is a dying business not because it doesn't have great products but because its business model is completely burgered. Apple have more money kicking around doing nothing than the UK government and I think Canadian government as well have in foreign reserves put together. They are absolutely mindbogglingly massive and cannot be intimidated by IMG. People are confusing what is fair and right with what is practical and possible. Who gives a s++t what Apple have done, it really comes down to what can be proved and if proving it can end up being worth it.IMG shouldn't take on Apple, it could, maybe would, destroy what value there is to investors in the business (which is very little looking at the balance sheet objectively) and litigation could hasten a disorderly and potentially unfavourable sale or brake up of the business. Apple know this and so do all the potential buyers of IMG. Apple have dealt IMG a moral blow and now the vultures are hovering. It isn't in the nature of vultures to swoop down to apply CPR. They are waiting to pick the meat off the carcass. There are no good options for IMG because of the years of unbelievably inept management by intellectual geniuses who had no idea how to nurture and grow a commercially run PLC delivering profits to investors. The casual way they let Apple have pretty much a free hand to customise IMG IP was inconceivably naive. The laissez-fair style will ultimately make it impossible to prove IMG had not given tacit permission to Apple to customise IMG IP. It beggars belief to think that a business that was so hopeless at running itself commercially has made a better job at 'belt and bracing' agreements with Apple. IMHO, there will not be anywhere near enough contemporaneous evidence recorded over the years to prove a case in court especially given Apple's access to the very best top end lawyers.Get real everyone, the games up. IMG is gone, IMHO there will be no litigation and the only question is when they go and whether they are smashed up or sold on block.Any potential new owner with deep pockets might want to take the fight to Apple but lets face it IMG's business ineptitude over the years is the only reason they are even in with a chance to get access to this great portfolio of assets in the first place. They might just be content with that.AIMHO and DYOR

Hub 13 Sep 2017

Re: Apple & IMG litigation? From what I can see, Apple have simply built upon the previous A10 and made some advances. As IMG have already said, this still uses their IP as it's built upon the IMG version.Apple have said this is their first ever 'designed' GPU but it's actually a n existing GPU that they have adapted and tweaked by looks of things.IMG were never going to take Apple to the courts and win as they don't have the firepower. But as mentioned before, Samsung and other Apple competitors will sniff a weakness here. Apple have bascially opened themselves up to litigation and my guess is they will not want Samsung getting hold of IMG.The apple revs were always going to end in 12 to 18 months time as market knew this.Nothing has changed since April/May war of words but last night's news on the A11 looks like confirming that any buyer of IMG will have litigation opportunities and could tie Apple up for years on their flagship product.Can Apple really take that risk?News on Canon / Lattice merger deal should be issued by whitehouse on or before Friday. After that, Canon should make a move for IMG. After that... a bid war should follow.HUB

EyesonHawk2 13 Sep 2017

Apple & IMG litigation? Custom Apple GPU in iPhone X could pave way for Imagination lawsuitApple's new iPhone X packs a lot of great new tech including the first custom-designed Apple GPU. The only problem is that Imagination Technologies doesn't think Apple can make its own GPU without violating its IP.Among the major announcements from Apple at the launch of its iPhone X and iPhone 8 models was a small, but significant detail with regard to the latest development in its custom silicon. Apple's chip bespoke chip making capability has helped to ensure that its chips match or beat the best that Qualcomm has been able to produce over the past few years. However, it has often relied on Imagination Technologies GPUs to help give it a winning edge in mobile graphics performance. Until now.You may recall that Apple and Imagination, once close partners, had a public break up earlier this year. Purportedly, the bust up had to do with the licensing fees that Apple has been paying Imagination to use its graphics technology in its custom A-series chips. In April this year, Imagination released a statement that Apple had advised the company that it would no longer be using its technology in shipping products in the coming 15 months to two years. So you can color us surprised to learn that the new Apple A11 Bionic SoC also packs in what Apple claims is its own custom tri-core GPU design. Apple says that its new GPU is good for a 30 percent performance improvement over the Apple customized version of the Imagination PowerVR GT7600 Plus GPU found in its A10 Fusion SoC. In its April statement, Imagination made it clear that Apple had admitted to working on its own GPU solution in parallel to the work it was undertaking in collaboration with Imagination at the time. According to Imagination, Apple also indicated that it would not be paying Imagination any licensing fees in relation to its own GPUs. Imagination, however, countered that it would be "extremely challenging" for Apple to design an all-new GPU architecture from the ground up without infringing on Imagination's IP. Imagination also claims that it requested advice from Apple that would demonstrate that any custom GPU it produced would not impinge on Imagination's patents. Apple has allegedly refused to provide such advice.Apple for its part responded to Qualcomm's statement claiming that the mobile GPU maker's claims are misleading, factually incorrect, and also get the timeline of events wrong. Apple also countered that Imagination had known for some time that Apple was planning on ending their relationship given that it had long been developing its own GPU tech. Potentially complicating matters for Apple, however, are reports that it has also hired away numerous Imagination Technologies engineers to help bolster its own GPU efforts.The two companies are currently said to be in mediation talks with regard to licensing fees. However, the seemingly sudden switch to a custom Apple GPU in its A-series SoCs could see the end of mediation talks and the possible onset of litigation.SEE:[link]

Hub 12 Sep 2017

AI Chip Looks like it's more about AI and unclear whether IMG's IP features in it. Previous chip called A10 was IMG but Apple made no reference to it.Article below shows the battle amongst the larger companies to create their own chips. I suspect IMG will be going to one of Apples competitors in the not too far future. Will Canon get hold of IMG or will ARM or another swoop?Seems bulk of this news was known back in April/May.HUBApple packed an AI chip into the iPhone X The main use for the AI chip that Apple talked about on Tuesday is quickly performing face recognition. The launch follows Apple's introduction of the Core ML artificial intelligence library.Jordan Novet | @jordannovetPublished 12 Mins Ago CNBC.comSource: AppleApple on Tuesday said that the forthcoming top-of-the-line iPhone X smartphone will feature a chip custom-built for handling artificial intelligence workloads.The dual-core "A11 bionic neural engine" chip can perform 600 billion operations per second, Apple executive Phil Schiller said at the inaugural launch event at the company's new Apple Park headquarters in Cupertino, California.The biggest thing the chip can do is enable fast face recognition for the Face ID authentication feature for unlocking and making purchases on the iPhone X.The news isn't a complete surprise. Bloomberg reported in May that Apple was developing an AI chip for the iPhone, but it wasn't clear if the chip would be ready for this year's crop of iPhones.And there is a more general move in the industry toward customization of silicon to accommodate the needs of AI as it becomes more common in software. Alphabet's Google has already designed two generations of chips for handling AI computing workloads in data centers. Microsoft is developing an AI chip for a future version of its HoloLens mixed reality headset.Having the new specialized chip on board the iPhone will mean the main chip will have less work to do, which should improve battery life. Otherwise tasks like ongoing object recognition during video captured through the phone's camera, for example, could quickly burn through the battery.Plus, in the near future, more mobile devices than the iPhone could contain processors that are tuned for AI, if recent comments from Google's Android chief, Dave Burke, are any indication."Over time, we expect to see DSPs [digital signal processors] specifically designed for neural network inference and training," Burke said at the G I/O conference this year.While today's news will certainly rightfully grab headlines, Apple has previously packed iPhones with silicon that could potentially be used for AI. The iPhone 7 contains a field-programmable gate array, which Intel and Microsoft have both explored for the acceleration of AI tasks. Apple had never previously included an FPGA in an iPhone, Forbes reported.Apple is no stranger to silicon development. The company already commands respect with its A-series processors in iOS devices, and adding a component in the phone that's dedicated to certain types of computations isn't such a huge departure.In June, Apple introduced a library of tools called Core ML, which one AI practitioner described as a "dead giveaway" that Apple is preparing to launch an AI chip.

Hub 12 Sep 2017

Re: we will learn nothing from iphone la... The new iPhone 8 has a custom GPU designed by Apple with its new A11 Bionic chipPosted 5 minutes ago by Matthew Lynley (@mattlynley)The new iPhone 8 camera packs a new chip called the A11 bionic, which is loaded with an upgraded amount of power with a 6-core chip — but that’s probably not the most important part of the company’s announcement.Apple is including a custom-designed GPU in the iPhone 8. GPUs excel at machine learning thanks to their ability to spread out the kinds of rapid calculations across an array of cores that are required for machine learning, like natural language processing and image recognition. They’re great for games, sure, but this is a big step for Apple as it looks to lock people into its ecosystem with Siri across an array of devices.This was a move that was probably a long time coming. There were murmurs of Apple designing its own GPU for the iPhone in April. Apple is not alone in looking into building custom hardware and GPUs for its machine learning efforts, optimizing its hardware for its needs. For Apple, that means building tools that are optimized for Siri as well as for its cameras and other potential machine learning tools.This is also going to be a big deal for Apple’s efforts in augmented reality. Apple is looking to woo developers with tools for developing augmented reality, and including the actual oomph in the phone to support a high-quality consumer experience will help attract even more developers.Here’s the rest of the guts of the A11 Bionic chip, the next-generation chip for the iPhone 8:Apple usually upgrades its processors to make them faster and more efficient as the demands of smartphones grow over time with new apps and processes. But Apple coming out with its own custom GPU is a Very Big Deal because this is an area that Nvidia has had almost full ownership for a long time. This is going to be important for developers going forward.

Hub 12 Sep 2017

Re: we will learn nothing from iphone launch Well, they've just announced that it will use Apples first ever designed chip called the A11 Bionic.Will be interesting to see how that works out in the courts if Samsung or another gets hold of IMG.HUB

techno foxx 12 Sep 2017

we will learn nothing from iphone launch techno fox we will not learn anything from the launch of the next generation Iphone8 x as Apple does not list these GPU specs at a launch event or at least that is what has happened at every launch since the first iPhone was launched, the only way we knew that PowerVR was inside each generation of IPhone is by waiting for each generation to be taken to bits by the web specialist web sites who are very good at deconstructing these devices.

Hub 12 Sep 2017

Re: iPhone launch & IMG I wouldn't worry about IMG have to fight any battles with Apple. The new owner of IMG will be happy to do that and as some have said already... tieing apple up in the courts coud set them back. Samsung would be only too delighted to stick a spoke in the wheel after the last court room debacle with Apple.Apple have a huge market of legacy phones ranging back to Iphone 4 across the globe.The new phones take time to make their way into the market and many stand off awaiting the usual Apple F-k cups. Second generation are often the best as teething problems get ironed out.I think Canon are more interested in Lattice deal at the moment and if that gets a big NO from Mr Trump (deadline is this friday) then they are expected to move for IMG without delay.There are multiple bidders for IMG and it doesn't make much difference what Apple do from here on.HUB

Tired and Confused 12 Sep 2017

Re: iPhone launch & IMG We are approaching the moment when we will find out whether a patent war is possible. This is in essence the risk reward point for holding shares. If there are no clear infringements but some smoking guns then litigation becomes a huge and expensive risk for IMG who will simply be filibustered by Apple lawyers until they run out of funds to fight on, that is unless they find a white knight with deep pockets who has the will and incentive to fund litigation for years. That is a big if.Sadly I suspect that IMG as a whole is worth less than the sum of the parts so selling IMG as a going concern could be tricky if Apple have indeed successfully cut the umbilical cord. There are those who believe Apple will not be able to place a bomb proof firewall between their newly developed IP and IMG patented IP but sadly the problems will keep coming for IMG either way. Lets face it, Apple and IMG will by now have no worthwhile relationship and either way their main customer is leaving with or without a payout. Even if they win a payout an existential event has occurred and all the funds from any payout will do is delay the inevitable. Profits from ongoing operation simply do not cover the running of the business profitably as a proper PLC as Apple royalties fall away.Simply said it is death by 1000 cuts unless the first cut is the deepest!AIMHO and DYOR